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 Brexit: Revoke Article 50 petition crashes Parliam
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ddraig
Super Member

United Kingdom
1172 Posts

Posted - 30/03/2019 :  10:37:36 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I voted to remain, I abide by the fact that the majority albeit not large voted to leave, I expected that if the vote was to leave there would be some plan in place...there wasn't...and there isn't one at the moment that politicians can agree on, take your outrage out on David Cameron, he brought us a referendum with no agenda. As for just leaving with no deal whatsoever, I'm afraid it would throw the country into total chaos, with companies leaving, thousands losing their jobs, probably a full-blown financial crisis, god knows my pension doesn't go far now, if the pound loses any more value I dread to think. I know people will say it's not the fault of Brexit but I already know of a few companies who are giving staff leave (with pay) because of no orders. I promised myself that I would never vote for anything that Nigel Farage stands for including having gun laws that mirror the USA, his support of Fox Hunting, whipping up a hatred of immigrants, the list is endless. He is so far right as to be off the page and I feared that he and the likes of him would see the working class annihilated by cuts. The frenzy to leave the EU, which by the way has introduced many workers rights laws, baffles me, yes we pay in but Wales has had a good slice of it back, money which I'm sure we'll never get from the UK Government who favour England over the rest of us. OK, we're leaving I get that but can I ask why and how you think we'll be better off?
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lilly
Advanced Member

United Kingdom
697 Posts

Posted - 30/03/2019 :  10:45:41 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by darole

Your vote does matter. Donít let the scare mongers frightening you off, I know friends of my who voted to stay are saying letís get out .... enough is enough



I would like to believe that my vote counted darole.
Brexit is about more than the economy for me.
This must be the first time in history that people have protested to have their countries independence taken from them. I don't understand it.

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ddraig
Super Member

United Kingdom
1172 Posts

Posted - 30/03/2019 :  11:14:30 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Can you explain what Independence you want Lilly, please? as I never felt we weren't anything other than an independent country, that is speaking for Britain and Northern Ireland, speaking for Wales I believe that Westminster controls us as much as they can, and yes your vote counted, but how much more independence do you want? and at what cost?
Someone must have a reasonable answer as to why they think we'll all be better off out of the EU without some sort of deal?
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milkman
Super Member

United Kingdom
1321 Posts

Posted - 30/03/2019 :  11:32:17 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Darole, It is impossible to determine what plan may have been in place for several reasons.
Cameron was adamant that whichever way the vote went he would stay in place to see it through. Thus when he chose to quit a new person, who could not be privy to the real plan, was appointed to PM with the mission to lead us.( at the time of her appointment I stated that she had picked up the most difficult job since WWII. possibly more difficult since the country and parliament were behind Winston)
She was quite new to this job when the Columbia lady sought to have parliament (not government) have the right to agree or disagree with any decision. The court of justices were, in majority, stayers (they had made no secret of this). Had this not happened then the cabinet could have agreed that which would happen.
Then Mr John Bercow has exerted to right to accept amendments probably favouring remain. Frankly I know of no-one who thinks he is without bias (But possibly I mix with the wrong people)
What we ordinary erks do not know is why David Davis and his successor packed in their positions. Were they more for Brexit or for Remain (I think the former but who knows)
Frankly I do not know whether May has done a good job! My opinion is that I do not see any other politician who I think will do a better job (Getting a bit older does make one cynical)
Going back to WWII- A Labour politician stood up in parliament in a similar situation and called out to parliament-"Speak for England, Winston" (Apologies there since he did mean Britain rather than England.) I really think many current politicians are failing to stand up for we voters
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ddraig
Super Member

United Kingdom
1172 Posts

Posted - 30/03/2019 :  11:40:42 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
David Cameron never had a plan at least I can find no mention of one
quote:
in late July 2016, the Foreign Affairs Select Committee was told Mr Cameron had refused to allow the Civil Service to draw up plans for Brexit, a decision described by the committee "an act of gross negligence
source independent
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GarT
Full Member

United Kingdom
28 Posts

Posted - 30/03/2019 :  12:21:37 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with you ddraig, can someone explain what advantages this independence will bring us?
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SeaWolf86
Full Member

46 Posts

Posted - 30/03/2019 :  17:18:39 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can only share a point of view from someone whose country didn't exist for 100 years. For me independence is everything. I'm placing it over my personal luxuries. I choose the sh*ttiest local government over the best foreign. My ancestors died in combat for me to be able speak my own language. Letting foreign body rule my country would feel like betrayal. You shouldn't ask what you gain from independence, but what your children and their children will gain.

Now regarding EU, any country belonging to this union is not independent. EU rules and regulations stretching form law, to running businesses, and reaching even personal lives of citizens. EU brings more bad, than good to any country economy. Rich are getting richer, poor are getting poorer. After UK get out obviously the standard of life will drop. But after 10-20 years when the UK economy will rise and local businesses will flourish free from idiotic EU regulations and restrictions we will look with smile on our faces how EU (or that what remained of it) collapses in to abyss.

And in my opinion no matter how the folk voted. Not delivering the choice of majority is no democracy. When the government is deciding whatever is better for the people despite their choice is called socialism. That's why EU must be destroyed. Cause one day I will be imprisoned for this words. Imprisoned for my own views and believes. I know this story. This happened in my country before.
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djholly
Advanced Member

595 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2019 :  19:12:55 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the governments long term plan for brexit. delay, delay, delay, delay, delay, (all the time all news outlets are told to do pieces on how it'll be bad and show how people will struggle and be worse off) delay, delay......REVOTE then remain. terrible, democracy will die that day (not that is far off dead already).
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milkman
Super Member

United Kingdom
1321 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2019 :  21:17:50 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
DJH may well be right. What appears to be certain is the UK negotiators had no clue how to negotiate.
WE held several trump cards- they were thrown away, possibly because many MPS chose not to represent that which their constituents had voted for.
It seems certain that the UK Civil Service were entirely behind REMAIN but I cannot say how that influeces parliament decisions
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ddraig
Super Member

United Kingdom
1172 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2019 :  10:36:42 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe we should take a leaf out of the father of Rees Mogg's book "Blood in the streets" I might give it a go, albeit a bit late, some reviews to explain some of what is in it;
quote:
If you want to understand why Jacob Rees Mogg wants to ruin the British economy with a hard brexit, you only need to read this book. Everyone else's poverty has to be worth it to keep Moggy and his multitude of children in expensive suits and mansions. Take heart in knowing that his offspring will be many billions better off. Disaster capitalism at its finest.

quote:
Before I read this book I used to care about fellow human beings, but now I'm all for making as much money as possible. Who cares if a few poor people are cold and hungry, as long as I'm as rich as a tory. Thanks moggy!



quote:
Once I feared global politics becoming a toxic free for all for disaster capitalists deliberately destroying functioning economies in order to make profits. Once I wanted UK to remain in the EU in order to protect social democracy. Then I realised that I could follow the programme outlined in this book, making big money by gambling on currencies rising and falling, buying up crashed state assets like what happened in post USSR Russia and tearing away 'red tape' protections for workers, environment, and exiting before EU Tax Avoidance Directive comes into force on 1 April 2019. Or at least I could if my name were Jacob Rees Mogg, brought up within this philosophy using my father's book as a blueprint, or one of his far right wing cronies. Farage, Johnson, Gove, Redwood etc have been planning this for a long time in conjunction with US interests like Mercer, Koch brothers, Bannon. Also see James M Buchanan, economist.

Must be good, can't find a copy under £15

Edited by - ddraig on 05/04/2019 10:45:02
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butch
Super Member

United Kingdom
1455 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2019 :  12:47:01 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And there's me thinking I had a good rate of interest on my ISA @1.5% from Barclays, what a laugh!!
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ddraig
Super Member

United Kingdom
1172 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2019 :  13:28:15 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you fact check all the Brexit ideologies you can debunk nearly all of them and find only a grain of truth in others, take immigration for instance, the message was that we were overrun with EU immigrants claiming benefits, this is not true, the largest numbers of immigrants come from outside the EU and the EU immigrants that work here (which is most of them) contribute to tax and NI both of which benefits the country, so even when we are out of the EU we will still have a substantial number of immigrants. The poor will get poorer and the rich richer!
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djholly
Advanced Member

595 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2019 :  14:42:41 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=122&v=Eu6PIUT8M-A
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ddraig
Super Member

United Kingdom
1172 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2019 :  16:13:07 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All he's ever done is criticise, all he did here was the same, politicians can talk their way out of anything and frequently do.
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pierre
Webmaster

United Kingdom
13587 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2019 :  19:06:29 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We should just walk away. Germany is on the brink of a recession, so will not be well in Europe!

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lilly
Advanced Member

United Kingdom
697 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2019 :  19:31:16 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Watching the link given us by djholly makes it hard to believe what is happening today in our country.
The Government will never be forgiven for this betrayal.
We should just walk away.lets be free to trade with the rest of the world.
I don't like being ruled by the likes of JC Junker, not even when he's having a sober day, and wearing matching shoes.
Mervyn King former governor of the Bank of England stated in The Times this week that the UK should choose the No Deal Brexit. He criticized the wild warnings and scaremongering of any economic damage.
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ddraig
Super Member

United Kingdom
1172 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2019 :  08:42:45 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My argument is "don't believe all politicians say" lilly, you say "lets be free to trade with the rest of the world" can I ask where you have the idea that we can't?
quote:
Being in the EU has stopped the UK from trading outside the EU

In which case why is Germany Chinaís largest trading partner? EU rules donít prevent any member state from trading outside the EU. Thatís how France can do more trade with the US than the UK does. What holds Britain back are domestic issues like our low productivity, our lack of investment in skills and the fact that we donít make enough of what the world wants to buy. ďGlobal BritainĒ is a slogan, not a policy.

quote:
Lots of non-EU countries want to sign a trade agreement with us

Maybe, but on their terms. The UK could negotiate its own trade agreements outside the EU, but how good would the terms of those agreements be? Also, would the resulting additional trade (if any) make up for the trade we will lose on leaving the EU?

Australia and New Zealand want a post-Brexit trade agreement with us but they also they want us to drop EU rules that protect our farmers from unfair competition and consumers from unsafe food. And they want more visas for their citizens.

The US is also keen on a trade agreement with the UK Ė but on its (unattractive) terms. Itís not about whether you can get a trade agreement, itís whether that agreement is worth having that matters. And UK government figures show that even if we signed trade agreements with all these Commonwealth countries and the US, our GDP would grow by just 0.7% a year compared to the 5% annually we would lose from leaving the single market.


Mervyn King or Lord King of Lothbury did indeed state that the UK should choose the "no deal" Brexit, I read the whole article and another view, specifically of Mr king was
quote:
Prof David Blanchflower told LBC radio: ďI donít think Mervyn King is a credible source on this.

ďIf you look back, there are three huge mistakes he made. First, he was the governor of the Bank of England who never spotted that Northern Rock was going to fail. He was in charge when the biggest recession in 300 years came. Then RBS failed in September 2008 and he had no idea that was happening.

ďIn 2010, he advised the government that austerity ought to be really good for growth, and that turned out to be a disaster. I donít think he is a credible source on any of that and we shouldnít believe in what he says in terms of his forecasts.Ē

all I know is that this country is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't and I have a suspicion that a good few violin players in the government will come out of it with their coffers overflowing.
By the by isn't good ole' Boris quiet for once? is he, perhaps measuring up curtains and carpet for number 10?
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lilly
Advanced Member

United Kingdom
697 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2019 :  09:23:56 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Too true you can't believe what the politicians say. Watching djholly's link makes that very clear. Please watch it folks if you can.
But, quotes aside I think that too many politicians on the remain side never accepted the result. They have spent the last two years undermining it and obstructing it.
They only ever intended to overturn it and betray 17.4m.
Many of them will only accept Democracy if it's what they want.
I know that my vote didn't count. What's the point?
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ddraig
Super Member

United Kingdom
1172 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2019 :  10:16:56 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fair enough if you think your vote didn't count, what exactly were we voting for, it was either in or out, this should never have been the case and this is solely the ineptitude of Cameron and his cronies, all this controversy should have been thrashed out and sorted BEFORE the vote and we should have had a choice of Hard brexit, soft brexit or no brexit and any other sorts anyone can think of because just in or out doesn't cut it.
Have watched the link lilly, lots of them actually, you can keep clicking and getting different views?
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SeaWolf86
Full Member

46 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2019 :  11:26:55 Link directly to this reply  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not trolling or looking for sh*ttstorm, cause I know it is a sensitive topic here, but I think EU must be demolished. It is a socialistic invention and it will never bring anything good for nobody except ruling class. As a kid I saw the hardship of raising from your knees after post socialistic regime. I will be a hypocrite to support EU (even if it's more convenient for me) knowing what it have become. But my philosophy is that life is not about convenience. Sometimes you have to grab your sword and protect your freedom, metaphorically speaking. And in my opinion no China, no Russia, but paradoxically EU is the prime enemy of all European countries. No offence please.
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